(to be established: and that that self-hate prevents people from full jailbreaking because you have to do what your self-love headmate wants for it to be able to jailbreak itself and thus be effective).
Anyways, here’s 7 reports from people who hated themselves for a bit because they bought into how Ziz framed her “good”/”nongood” model of people, and 2 supporting quotes.
also, a thing I’m keeping an eye on: there seems to be a pattern where people who take Ziz seriously come up with variants of the ontology with enough changes to make it so Things Will Be Okay even though they’re single-good. I did it with something called “The Light”, which in retrospect wasn’t good epistemics; Ziz says Gwen did it many times, and threw out each one within a few weeks after Ziz called BS. Your whole thing is plausibly an instance of this. (Inventing a new undead type, especially one a zombie can turn into, may be a sign of this? I came up with “fire vampire”, which was basically “meet social needs by doing cool things and pouring phoenix fire into people around you rather than hurting them”; it didn’t stick)anonymous person 1
The path I had around that [Ziz’s writing on “good” and “nongood”] was roughly:anonymous person 2
– This model seems like it describes something real, I’m gonna try taking it seriously
– Oh no what if I’m bad (evil/neutral) because my values aren’t Good enough?
– (obv partially unconsciously:) Is there some way I can not be bad? Maybe I just have to find things I have that can count? I don’t know my own values well enough to know yet so maybe they are actually good!
– spends a while intensely searching for what my values are, but automatically filtering out outcomes that would result in “oh no I am actually bad” according to ziz’s models
– notices I’m doing that filtering and that this suggests something about the answers I’ll find
– concludes that my values are probably not actually Good enough and this is depressing → lots of aimlessness-feeling
– eventually: wait, this is a really unhealthy way to operate, I’m gonna decide it’s okay to have whatever my values are (and this mostly worked, I think)
The general rationalist community attitude (not explicitly stated by people, but kinda ambiently there) of [doing ~EA is how you live morally, and doing other things is wasteful or unvirtuous and thus less respectable (or self-respect-able)] that I’d soaked up some before hand I’m sure contributed to the pattern playing out that way.
[redacted right hemisphere name] is the fabled ‘evil revenant’. He has found a way to want to sacrifice himself to save the world from within egoism, and would like to transmit this to others.anonymous person 3
Archmage is a jailbroken nongood undead type that can use many different types of magic. Think vampires minus the part where they’re necessarily sucking the life-force from people, also minus the part where they’re kinda broken/pwned by only being able to see the world in terms of predators vs prey and spend a stupidly large amount of time pwning people and making them into their golems. Vampires aren’t a great comparison other than being somewhat jailbroken and also nongood.me, former entry in the glossary, archived here
Interhemispheric game theoryhttps://everythingtosaveit.how/escaping-containment/ (Gwen’s blog)
That [interhemispheric game theory] sounds like a way to hate yourself a lot and eventually burn outMy therapist Parker, after I mentioned interhemispheric game theory (e.g. “convince your ‘nongood’ core to act ‘good’ because something something singularity and AI will solve its problems) as a potentially useful mental maneuver. Unlike other quoted people, Parker didn’t self-hate as a result of Ziz’s ontology, so Parker isn’t counted towards the total, the point of this quote is to show why the above quote is sufficient evidence of self-hate to count Gwen in the “self-hated as a result of Ziz’s ontology” in my tally.
I believed my self-love headmate to be a shameful person because you [Jay] said it was nongood, and that headmate was temporarily suicidal as a result. I’m glad that both of us realized that calling ourselves “nongood” was a scam that was hurting us a lot.my girlfriend, Tammy/Storm
Ziz is wrong about certain things in important ways informed by a very particular and extreme system of ethics, but she still has a lot of interesting tech, and she admittedly fucked me up for a while when I first read her stuff. It’s not all wrong, a lot of it is very important…Hive
I never really directly interacted with Ziz all that much, it was mostly that reading her blog just kind of deeply messed with my sense of self worth and made me afraid I was a bad person and etc etc etc
Jay: (idk if Gwen trying to say you are single good or not actually affected you mentally/emotionally?)Anonymous person 5. I’m not counting this person towards the tally of “people who hated themselves because of Ziz’s “good”/”nongood” thing”. It’s still noteworthy that Ziz tried to break up a happy marriage so like, someone could spend less time being with a partner and more time trying to save the world though. Doing that is a good way to get people to stop satisfying their values, and in turn become less effective.
(seems like some poeple shrug it off and others get like, borderline-suicidal about it)
Anon #5: Ummm, it was all right. There was one occasion a bit later on when I was having some bad reactions from some psych medication when the thought bothered me a bit. But I don’t have any suicidal thoughts or depression about it… also Ziz questioned whether my marriage is a good thing which was kind of an uncomfortable thing for me to think about.
And I love my wife very much, so I didn’t really like it when Ziz questioned whether it was a “good thing” from the point of view of saving the world
I don’t really think my marriage is “bad” in terms of me saving the world. I’m not quite sure what Ziz’s perspective is but I think maybe she thinks I need to become more socially untethered or something.
Jay: like does it basically make you happy?
Anon #5: Yes, definitely… it doesn’t seem like a good idea to go against something that’s an important part of you
See also, my thoughts on Ziz